Episode 94:

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Hello, everybody, and welcome to The Upstream Leader Podcast. Today, we’re going to take a slightly different approach to the episode. Normally, we’ve got somebody on that we’re going to interview and really focus on a key area. We’re going to mix things up a little bit—I’ve actually got with me today our amazing producer, Justin Grant, who is located over in Fife, Scotland, which for those of you who play golf is near St. Andrews. To give you a little bit of an idea of proximity, Justin, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Jeremy. It’s good to be back, albeit in a slightly different role than the last time I joined you on The Upstream Leader.

Yeah, that’s right. If anybody is curious about Justin’s background, we did have an episode, and we’ll put in the show notes a link to that episode. I can’t remember what number it’s been. It’s been a few months ago where we explored some various topics. I think it was, overcoming adversity was the general focus of that podcast.

Yes.

And today, we’re going to take a slightly different approach. Justin is going to join me, and we’re going to explore some things that I’ve heard coming up in the profession, whether it’s conversations with clients at conferences—Justin also produces a number of other accounting podcasts, so it seemed quite fitting for us to just kind of jump on here and talk about some things.

Where I want to take this to start with is AI, which I’m sure somebody is out there thinking, “Oh boy.”

“Here we go again.”

AI again, yeah, back to the robots. But I want to take it in a slightly different direction. I’m going to start with, I very strongly believe that technology is a good thing. My background is in analytics, for those of you that know my background. AI was something that our team was using well over a decade ago, back when Watson became the fascination of everyone, right? Winning Jeopardy and doing all the things. I’ve long been a proponent of technology, but I think what’s going to happen—my belief—is that as we adopt more technology, it’s not going to replace people. What it’s going to do is it’s going to force us to level people up much more quickly.

What I mean by that is, you know, what I’m thinking is when we’ve got a new hire, what they’re doing today. I mean, admittedly, it’s already way different than what I was doing when I was a new hire. I mean, I still was getting the shoeboxes of paper documents and having to pick the right red pencil for the audit work papers so I don’t get a review note, right? Dating myself a little.

Green ledgers.

Yeah, green ledgers, multiple columns, all the things. So it’s obviously a little bit different now, but I really believe that in the next probably five years—and of course, who knows with how quickly technology changes, maybe faster—that a new hire is probably going to be operating at the same level that we see supervisors operating today. And the fact that they’re not doing the basics anymore, they’re doing more of the high level. I’m curious, Justin, you talk to a lot of people in our profession. What are you hearing? What are your thoughts? Is that tracking? Do you think I’m way off base here or am I close?

No, I think you’re definitely close, and the example you just gave, just comparing what relative level you were able to operate at given the tools at your disposal not very long ago, this is just the way things work. No matter what industry or profession we’re talking about, and no matter what time, it’s only the pace that changes—it’s not that things are ever not advancing. And that’s absolutely, oh, I mean, on this show, Dan Hood, right at the beginning of the year, he was saying this exact sentiment—that what’s going to be changing in ways that surprise people is the pace of the change, not the fact that change is here, because it is.

Yeah, and change has always been. I mean, what’s interesting in our profession is anybody on the tax side changes constantly.

Well, it has to be.

Every single year, it seems like there’s something. Some years bigger than others, especially in the U.S., about every four years. There’s got to be at least a big change coming because anytime we have administrative changes, there’s tax law changes, one of the very first things that happens. Yeah, change is going to keep happening. It’s not going to go away. There’s an AI, though, that a lot of people don’t talk about, and it’s augmented intelligence. That’s what’s always excited me. And I had a colleague, Lanny Morrow—I don’t know if he listens, but if you do, shout out to you, Lanny. He was one of the individuals that got me into technology very early in my career as an intern, actually. And we always talked about the idea of augmented intelligence—the fact that it’s not, how do you get the best people, and it’s not, how do you get the best computers, but how do you get the people that can use the technology the best? So you get the best of both worlds, and you really augment human intelligence with artificial intelligence. And truly, that’s going to be the thing that drives the most growth, is leveraging both, not getting into this either-or type of scenario.

And what that’s going to do to the profession doesn’t necessarily worry me. I know a lot of people are like, “Oh, it’s going to render this useless. It’s going to render that useless.” Let’s be realistic. No knock on the big things, but like TurboTax and all of the online—if they were taking over everything, nobody would be calling accountants today because it’s already automated. Pretty well.

I’ve been using TurboTax, or not anymore, but I did 25 years ago, and accountants are still necessary.

We’re always going to be necessary. What it’s going to do, though, is it’s going to change the role. And that is what has me really interested. I was talking with a gentleman in the profession, Paul Schmidt is his name. Again, Paul, if you’re listening, I appreciate this conversation we were having—we were talking about transformation. He’s working on leading transformation at a firm and changing processes and implementing AI and doing all the things to move the firm forward. And what got me thinking—and he and I didn’t delve into this, I kind of saved it for you and me, Justin—was, does this render a technical expert not as useful anymore? Because I’ve known lots of partners over the years that have been the technical expert.

Sure.

I remember a partner that, I mean, you ask him anything about government auditing standards, he could almost recite it to you off the top of his head, which, I mean, cool party trick. But beyond that, he knew all of that. My concern is, is that still as valuable in 2025, 2030, as it was in 1995 with the access to information? And does the technical expert change?

Yeah, it does.

Am I crazy in thinking that?

No, not in the slightest. Now, is it something to panic about? No. I actually feel like there’s some nice parallels here, not just with the fact that I happen to fall into a niche of accounting podcasts, but the fact that my work is podcasting, is something that can be a nice analogy. So as an example, there are AI tools in audio production—of course there are. Are they replacing what I do, like my technical expertise? No. Are they augmenting my technical expertise? Absolutely. But then again, prior to this sudden AI influx, I was using tools to augment what I can do that were not so-called “intelligent tools,” but they were still technological tools.

What we’re going to see the difference in, that I think you’re getting at Jeremy with the technical expertise, is that bar raising—like, how much of it do you need? Yeah, like, someone who’s a junior accountant or just coming in, a trainee, whatever you want to say, they’re going to need to bring just a higher baseline than 10 years ago. I don’t think there’s any controversy about that. Likewise, as compared to 10 years ago, a podcast producer is going to have to bring an even higher level of audio quality and flexibility and things like that because the tools that are available to me to do the work allow me to be. So I cannot be lazy—I can’t just rest on the tools—because then someone else will use the tools.

But what isn’t going to change, I think there’s three things. We’ll always be there that we can seize: One is that they want to hire us—the client wants to hire us to save time. Yeah, TurboTax is great, but like a lot of people, especially if they have very complicated tax returns, they might be able to do the entire thing in TurboTax, but do they really want to spend all that time doing that? And any other number of accounting tasks. You know, they’re endless. No. Secondly, are they really going to know if they did it right or not? Probably not. Now, with what I do, you can hear like, “Oh, I ran this through the thing and like, I can hear this little part’s weird.”

Sure.

But then on the other hand, it still kind of analogizes because how do they fix it? They may not know, like, how do I make this sound good? Likewise, “Oh, there might be something wrong with this balance sheet, but what is it exactly? I don’t know. I need someone I can trust to take care of that for me.” And then finally, the third element leads in from that. They want to talk to people. We’re decades from getting to the point where AI is going to take that role over. And even when it does, and it will, that you can feel like you’re having a comfortable, human conversation with the technology, there’s still going to be plenty of people that would rather speak to a person.

Oh, absolutely.

And so, that is what we have the ability to offer. So, focusing on those sorts of elements of doing the job, actually, much like David Burkus said in a recent episode, it’s not just about your talent, like in that microscopic, zoomed-in, “this element” of accounting. It’s like, what can I really bring to the entire team as someone with all of these various skills, and the ability to interact with people. The ability to learn about clients. The ability to put their minds at ease. Those kinds of things are light years away from being taken. We’re always going to have that advantage.

Oh yeah, definitely. And it starts to change a little bit, the role of the technical expert. Because historically, and by historically, boy, that makes the 90s sound forever ago, that isn’t exactly what I intended to do there. Man, the older I get, the more that happens. We’ve got to work on that. Anyway, historically, the technical expert was there for their knowledge. They knew all the things. And it wasn’t as easy to go find that knowledge, because you had to go to a library, you had to go to a bookshelf.

I still remember our founder, Sam Allred, talking about how early in his career, and he’s since retired, so his early is earlier than my early, where he went in to ask somebody something, one of his partners, and the partner walked around the desk, put his hand on his shoulder and said, “Your answers will be right over there,” and he pointed at the bookshelf and said, “I’m not your library, it’s over there.” Even when I started my career, you still had to go find the answers, and oftentimes, if you were struggling to find it, you could go, you could do the research, but then you went to “the expert” in that topic, in that industry, in that standard, and you sought their advice or their information on, okay, I read it, but what does it mean? Which is the nuance that a technical expert provides.

Exactly.

And that, in my view, is also going to become incredibly important. As we move forward, the information is so much more readily available, and you can probably even find some of the gray area out there, and you can use some tools that’ll give you examples. But the technical expert is, it’s all about the application, it’s not about the knowledge. It’s now the use of the knowledge as we move forward. If firm leaders are listening to this, I’m with you, Justin, I don’t think that means we have to panic. But what it does mean is we have to figure out how do we start to intentionally develop the ability to use that knowledge earlier. Because it’s easily accessible. I mean, I always say that it used to be, if you wanted to figure out how to run a business better than anybody else, it did take years of experience. You had to shadow somebody, you had to be in a business that was being run well, you had to go to a business that was being run well, convince them that you needed to watch, get an audience with a CEO, learn, do all these things. Now if you want to learn how to run a business well, you can get a podcast, you can get a book, you can get a blog, you can follow their CEO on Twitter, you can do all of these different things—the information is there.

So now we have to figure out how do we get people to more quickly utilize that information. And how do we, in a way, shortcut the learning? And when I’m saying that, I’m actually thinking of the movie Short Circuit. I don’t know if you remember that, Johnny 5, right? Where he just flips through the book and it’s like “Consuming information”—I forget what the phrase is, but I can see it playing in my mind. He got all the information. That’s great. But how do we now use that? And I don’t know that I have a magic answer for that. But that to me is what’s going to set the best firms apart is they’re going to come up with, if we don’t have to go through all these repetitions of the mundane, which, I mean, that used to be the training ground.

Yeah!

Do your two years of being new in whatever department you’re in, client accounting, consulting, auditing, whatever it was, I was in forensics, it was still do the basics, which was the data, it was all the little things. When all of that is now done elsewhere by something or someone, how do we then rapidly develop people to be able to apply the knowledge if they haven’t gone through the mundane. I think that’s our challenge.

Yeah. I think step one is hire people who are prone to critical thinking. That’s not the magic answer, but I think just that phrase, “critical thinking,” it’s becoming more and more important everywhere.

How do you hire for that though?

I know. Exactly. I think the best chance you have is to look at candidates holistically. If you’ve got a candidate that maybe doesn’t even quite have the same grades as another candidate, but they have areas of interest that span well outside just accounting and business and things like that—if they show a love for learning and understanding, as squishy and subjective as that can be, you can absolutely suss that out of people in interviews. They’re the kind of intangible qualities that you want in people who are going to be able to be dynamic in the way that is going to be demanded when the tools are doing the grunt work, and so, learning via the grunt work is no longer an option.

Yeah. I don’t know that it was ever the best option to start with.

It may not have been.

It was our default option. We did it. But you raise a great point on the grades. And I’ve shared this, Monica and I talked about this, Monica Turek, the idea of learning on a recent episode, that you can play “the game of school.” I talk with my kids about this, and as I reflect, if I’m brutally honest with myself, I was great at playing the game of school.

Same. Being good at school is a skill.

It is a skill. It doesn’t mean that you are good at learning, though.

Exactly.

It just means that you’re good at, okay, I know what answers I have to get. I know how to play nice with others, raise my hand when I’m supposed to, not raise my hand when I’m not supposed to, figure out what’s going to get me the right grades on the test. And that’s where we confuse a lot of the times learning with compliance, and even having a 4.0—I remember, I’m a nerd, I was great at playing the game of school, 4.0 was like—and I remember early in my career, and I remember the class that ended that for me. The dean of our business school said, “Jeremy, you don’t understand how much more recruitable you are without a 4.0.”

Yeah, being a 3.9?

Yeah. He goes, “There is actually something to that that shows there’s more to you than just learn and pass the test. That is not necessarily indicative of the fact that you’re a great candidate, that you’re all of these things.” But I had it in my mind that I was playing—I didn’t think of it then. There’s a phenomenal book called The Learning Game that explores this idea that I was playing the game of school. That’s going to be the other element that has to fundamentally change in accounting firms as we have more technology, as we have more outsourcing and offshoring, all of these things—when something or someone else is doing the mundane, the things that don’t require critical thinking—we have got to transform the firm, and arguably the first month of someone’s career, into an onboarding experience that cultivates learning rather than compliance. I fundamentally believe that if we don’t—the firms that do that will have a competitive advantage, and those that don’t are going to be sucked into that commodity mindset of we just got to go faster and do more of them.

I love that you framed it that way, especially the competitive advantage, because I’ve actually got a little thing that I picked up on and I wanted to share today that does play into this, although it might not seem like it on the surface. Let me introduce it: I was just on Reddit, I was on one of the subreddits that pertains to one of the Big Four, I won’t name it. The person who posted this—it was a joke, So, I mean, I need to preface it with that—but it’s a joke that as you’re reading it, if you don’t realize it’s a joke, you could believe it.

Those are the best.

I know! Let me just share it and I’ll just read it verbatim. Here we go: “Hey everyone, ignore free pizza email. Just got laid off. Just wanted to warn y’all that layoff season is upon us. I just got the axe today. I got an email from Jennifer W. saying ‘free pizza on 24, first come first serve.’ I ran up there as fast as I could, but there was no pizza. Instead, I found the entire talent team waiting in ambush. They huddled all roughly 60 of us pizza persons together and told us with a bullhorn that if we had enough time for pizza, we obviously didn’t have enough to do around here. They then made us take the service elevator out so we wouldn’t disturb morale. To their credit, on the way out, they did hand us each a $5 gift card to Little Caesars, so I’d probably make the same choice again, if given the option. Your mileage may vary.”

Oh man!

Now, does that sound like the Big Four? Yes!

Like, again, it is a joke, it is a joke.

And that’s where the insight can come in: The competitive advantage we can get. Because clearly, the Big Four have established, for grinding people into paste and spitting them out, they’ve developed a competitive advantage. That’s how they work, and it works.

For them.

For them. But also, I feel like it’s becoming less viable even for them, but they’re going to be the slowest ships to turn and to change course, because of their literal, going on over a century in some cases, of bureaucracy and embedded thinking, and their size. Smaller firms that can be nimble, that can change their approach, and that can make it human-centric, can ironically take the technological revolution and make way more of it than Big Gour and top 50 type firms that do this sort of, you know, human cattle herding exercise of, you’re literally going to do one type of tax return for three years before you do anything else type of approach.

So I thought it was kind of serendipitous that I came across this joke on the internet about the way the Big Four works when this is our topic of conversation because it absolutely is true. The competitive advantage will come from taking this technology and making it human-centered, which is something they just don’t do up there. So you really have a chance here firm owners.

Yeah. It’s really not the reputation at all. And I mean, there’s, I will say, there are some top 50 firms that have phenomenal people and culture.

There are some, yes.

And they’re doing some great things, right? You get into the bigger firms though, when you’ve got thousands upon thousands of people… and I do find it hard to believe that you can be as human-centric with that. Now, full disclosure, I never had a desire to go to a firm that big for that reason. I did pick a, at the time—now, especially—a larger firm. It wasn’t a re I did go to a national firm. I spent the start of my career with a national firm. It was big enough, but not too big. And, you know, whatever. It’s so true, where you can make it human-centric, and as we’ve thought about this, it leads me to believe that, you know, the onboarding experience is such a great opportunity to do this. Because for so many firms, the onboarding experience is all about technical. Here’s how to do your job. And don’t get me wrong, I know that somebody’s going to say, “Alright, but are you saying we shouldn’t teach the technical?” No, I’m never going to tell you, you should not teach the technical skills. Yes, we have to have quality work product, quality client service.

But let’s go down the rabbit hole a little bit. What if we completely transformed the onboarding experience toward the entire first month or three quarters of it? Maybe we take the first three weeks to teach the critical thinking, the professional skills, to really focus in on all of the things that those with more experience wish the new hires had, and we crafted an experience that essentially took them from college graduate with no professional experience—or maybe limited from an internship capacity—to we take three weeks to expedite their professional maturity. Get them to where they’ve got the skills, the knowledge, we’ve put them into some experiences to where they’ve gotten, say, the first three years’ worth of professional experience in a really compressed period. And then we focus on the technical and we say, “Now you can go forth.”

And there’s a phrase that comes to mind. It was the dean of the college that I went to. He always said, “Go forth and be brilliant.” And there is something to that. But what I see so often is that firms will hire somebody and they’ll come in, they’ll give them their name badge and access to their laptop and all the stuff, and then it’s “go forth and be brilliant.” What if we gave them a month of really focused, human-centric, professional skills training and then said, “go forth and be brilliant?” It’s going to change everyone’s ability to operate at a high level within that firm because now we don’t have people thinking, well, it’d be nice if we could give them stuff, but they’re just not ready. Now, all of a sudden, they’re ready.

Yeah.

And it’s easier to take three weeks to train somebody before they’re overwhelmed and inundated with work than getting a year and a half in and being like, “Yeah, they’re too busy for that. We can’t do it.” I’m wondering if that is part of the competitive advantage, that we just completely redesign the onboarding experience to set people up for professional success, not just technical success.

Well, not to even mention that I feel like not only would this benefit the people coming in, if you already enjoy mentoring as a leader, imagine how much more fun it would be to do it this way, and even if you don’t, you might actually start to like it because this would be fun to show people the ropes, so to speak, in this way, and just getting to see them growing and just taking flight practically from day one instead of, like you said, it’s got to be this long grinding road before you can feel comfortable empowering them. No, you’re empowering them from the start, and how nice that would be just to see the human element of it.

Yeah. And what it leads me to really believe, Justin, is the true innovation and transformation coming in our profession is not technology, but it’s how we develop our people. That is going to be—I’ll put the stake in the ground here—that, in my view, will be the most important innovation and transformation for accounting firms in the next decade. It will not be how they use AI, but how they develop their people to evolve as the landscape evolves. It is still a people game. The best firms are the best firms because of their people, and how they develop their people, how they utilize their people. It’s not because they have the best technology investments. Don’t get me wrong, you’re going to have to invest in some technology somewhere.

Oh yes.

We can’t go back to the paper days and, yes, there will be technological innovation that comes with it, but that playing field can be leveled through capital. The playing field that won’t be leveled is those that can recruit, retain, and develop better than others, even in a technological revolution, will still be the best firms out there. Because, at the end of the day, it’s all about people.

It is, and ironically, even though you did just kind of downplay—not downplay—but the role of technology will be central, but it will be central in the way that it’s deferential to the people. And what I mean by that is we don’t want—and this is just a general statement, but—we don’t want to bill for time anymore. That’s, this is, again, it’s like a theme, like what should we not do anymore that we used to do in the past?

Yeah.

But let’s think about it in a time way. We only have so much time with people. If they’re spending their time doing the stuff that tech can do, you’re wasting them. So stop it! Have them do new things. And yeah, that’s maybe even a little scary, especially for accountants. However, the cost-benefit analysis, the things that we’re trained to recognize, that’s obvious—I feel like—when you frame it like that. Spend the time developing that you used to have to spend just getting them up to speed on how things work. You don’t need to do that anymore. This is a massive opportunity. We’re going to grow because of it.

Well, and people are the only resource that you have that have an unlimited ROI potential.

Exactly. Right.

You get the right people, you give them the right development, and the returns are limitless, because then they can lean into leverage, and all of the different technology is going to get you so far. And I like what you said—that technology is central, but it’s deferential to the people. In a way, I almost think you’ve got two centers that you have to focus on here: If we only focus on the tech, we won’t be deferential to the people. And so many firms are doing that, and it’s easy. Look, I’ve been there, done that. It’s so easy to get fixated on the tech.

Sure!

It’s almost like we have to have two focal points, and we’ve got to have the tech side and we’ve got to have the people side and they’ve got to work together, because if we stop focusing on the people, we will lose the people that we want to keep. And if we stop focusing on the tech, we’re going to fall behind. So we do have to keep both of them, and that’s a delicate balance, because it’s not easy. And if somebody said, alright, I’ve got a million dollars to invest, do I invest it in the tech or the people? I think my answer is yes. I don’t think you can pick one or the other.

No. Making it synergistic, I guess.

Yes.

Rather than feeling like your balance is delicate, you want them to prop each other up, getting yourself to that point, getting your firm to that point—that is the key to all of this, and the way that you do that, I feel, is keeping a pecking order; you’re not beholden to the technology, the technology is beholden to you, it’s deferential to you, it’s deferential to your people. It’s what they will use in large part to drive their success.

Yeah. And if the people aren’t able to use the technology, that’s just wasted money. If they aren’t able, if they’re unwilling… I mean, for decades, you know, doing this for years, I bet it’s been happening for decades, but for years, I remember the conversation. “Well, if we only had this technology.” “That’s the same thing that we already have.” “Yeah, but it looks different.” So?! You’re more likely to use it because it looks different than the current has a different color palette. Really? That’s the most ludicrous… you’re not going to use the technology—that’s what I’m hearing. The people have to be willing to use the technology for it to be successful.

So we don’t think the technical expert is going away.

No.

I don’t think AI is going to kill the technical expert, it’s going to change the technical expert. It’s going to change, it’s going to rely more on the nuance. It’s going to be the application, it’s going to be not just the pure information, but the delivery of that information in a way that drives better results internally or externally, I think is where we came to on this. It doesn’t kill the technical expert, it just evolves them.

It does. And especially with the external aspect, delivering that information in ways that are productive, that are comforting to clients, that those softer, as they’re often termed—they’re not—skills, are the ones that are going to need to be developed even more than before. And those are the kinds of people you’re going to need to look to, because no matter where we go in the short to medium term, we’re not being replaced by the robots primarily because other human beings want to talk to human beings, that’s what the technical experts who, yeah, there were nerds in closet-sized rooms doing a million tax returns, and that was great once upon a time. It was great to have people like that in your organization, but it’s just not going to be a realistic career path anymore.

Yeah. It’s going to be a continued evolution, like we said at the start. Change is going to be a constant and adapting how you train your people, going back to the critical thinking, you know, find those folks that have critical thinking, that have the desire to learn, that have the ability to talk with others, that can communicate effectively—the earlier we can develop the skills that we wish our people had five to seven years in, the earlier we can develop those, again, the more the competitive advantage. Because then they’re going to use the tech and they’re going to have the professional skills, the personal skills. Yeah, they’re soft for some, but it’s human skills. How do we interact with people? Because that’s always, as you just said, that’s always going to be the differentiator between us and AI. We’re human. They’re not. And as much as it may eventually feel that way, don’t get me wrong. I enjoy having a good conversation with my ChatGPT.

Absolutely!

It’s great. But I enjoy having conversations with people much more. And as long as humans are involved, there’ll be a need for other humans to interact with them and help them get there.

Well, Justin, I have thoroughly enjoyed this and I’m excited because so much of what we talked about and touched on in various ways will also be on the agenda at HeadWaters this July in Denver, Colorado. So July 17th and 18th, we will be in Denver, Colorado, we’ve got our HeadWaters conference. I know I’m going to be talking about, uh, how do we, what is it? “Stop persisting and start quitting” is what I’m going to explore. So this idea of don’t just keep doing the things that we’ve always done, but what are some of the things that we genuinely have to learn how to quit, and how do we get better at it? I mean, there’s so much grit and persistence and all of the things, but sometimes learning what you should quit is incredibly valuable.

Where do you draw the line?

Yeah. And then we’ll also have a session that probably parallels a little with some of what we’ve touched on here with a panel discussion on stop hiring so many accountants, which, that is not a knock on accountants by any means.

No, but you don’t need accountants to do everything you do in your firm!

That’s right! That’s right. There are some things you have to have an accountant, and there are other things you don’t have to have an accountant for. And if we want to get some varied perspectives and critical thinking, that may come from outside of the accounting realm and that’s okay. Our theme for the conference is “Accounting Reimagined.” So kind of challenging the way that we’ve done a lot of things, not for the sake of it, but for the sake of evolution and transformation and innovation in the profession. Hope folks can join us. By the time this goes live, registration will still be live. We’d love to see you there. You’d be able to find a link in the show notes to register for that conference.

But Justin, I’ve had a lot of fun, man. Thank you so much for joining me on this side of the mic and going on this topic.

I appreciate it, Jeremy. I’ve enjoyed this too and love bouncing the ideas back and forth. It’s not often like this. I’m usually listening to you sharing them and I don’t get to interject. I enjoy it, so thanks for having me on, I appreciate it.

Yeah, definitely, we will have to find another topic and do it again soon.

Oh yeah!

Sounds good. Well, thanks everybody for listening, and we look forward to talking to you again soon on The Upstream Leader.

Thanks, everybody.