Episode 75:

Welcome to The Upstream Leader Podcast. I’m Heath Alloway, and today our guest is Peter Ostapko, the founder and publisher of the Kinsman Journal. Our theme for today’s discussion is calming the noise. Peter, I’ve been looking forward to this conversation, so I appreciate you being on the show.

Absolutely. Honored to be here, Heath. Thank you for having me.

Of course. Well, Peter, something that we ask every one of our guests right out of the gates is: what really made you the leader that you are today?

I would say a long, steady obedience of observation of others, both good and bad. I think you learn a lot just through watching others and serving others and knowing your place over time. Those things start to compound after a few years and a couple of decades. I think that really helps. You become a good leader just by observation.

Well, Peter, as I’ve gotten to know you a little better over the past few months, I’ve been really following your work for, gosh, probably at least the last year and a half or so. Coming to one of your events and having lunch the other day, I’ve really thought about your career path multiple times and just thought, gosh, what a leap of faith you took over the past couple of years. So, Peter, just to give our listeners a little bit of a foundation of, you know, what your journey’s looked like, can you walk us through where you were and where you are today?

Yeah, you bet. So, I’m from the Springfield, Missouri area, went to Missouri State. Actually, I started at Evangel University, which is a private Christian school through the Assemblies of God. I met my wife there. But after a year I realized I wanted to major in finance, and at the time the school didn’t have a finance major, so I transferred to Missouri State and finished my schooling there. I graduated in the spring of 2008, which is a perfect time to graduate with a finance degree. I say that jokingly because I remember sitting in our Financial Management Class with our professor and watching the collapse of Bear Stearns. Our professor said it was going to be a lot different for us in the job world, and I agreed.

At that point, I just needed to get a job, something where I could learn and start somewhere. So, I did a ton of different interviews at a ton of different companies in various places. Initially, I was going to go into financial advising at a small bank here and work alongside someone I had been serving. But he decided to move back up north and work for US Bank. That bank we had worked for ended up going defunct and is no longer existent. I found myself in the insurance arena, not in a producer role but as an auditor for workers’ comp and liability policies. I did that for the first handful of years of my career. It was a very unglamorous job, but I worked from home, had a company car, had a territory, and traveled a ton. But I started somewhere.

After a few years, I knew some people at a boutique lending operation called AG Financial. At the time, they were about a $3 billion financial house. Now I think they’re up to about $10 billion. They had some boutique lending they did for churches and nonprofits, and they said they’d love to have me join them. The type of loans we were doing were pretty substantial, so face time and building relationships were important. Eventually, I moved to local community banking. I exited that field last fall but spent about ten years in local community banking and lending between those two different places, among others. Now I’m about 16 years into my career. I started in insurance, moved into finance and lending, and now, the natural path for most bankers and finance people, I’ve transitioned to publishing and organizing gatherings and spaces. It’s been an easy transition.

Sounds like exactly how you planned it, it sounds like.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Well, that’s cool. I didn’t know you were a trendsetter, Peter, that you were working at home before it was cool. I don’t think I knew that about you. Well, Peter, again, I think looking at that journey, there’s definitely some twists and turns and probably some soul searching and figuring out what you wanted to do and where it’s led you to today. Peter, I’m going to start this conversation a little differently than we do some of our episodes. A lot of times I’ll lead with questions. But let me give you a scenario, and it’s a scenario that I see quite often. I’m not just saying in the public accounting profession, I’ve seen it in other areas. I’ve seen it with family members, friends, people that I’ve known for years.

And this scenario is, too often “busy” is viewed as a status in our culture. And it’s this idea that the more that we have going on, sometimes the more important we feel like we are or that we’ll be viewed in our careers. And it’s this thought that, gosh, we have a lot going on at work. I’m trying to get to that next level. I’m trying to get the next promotion. Gosh, I’ve got my kids’ sporting events. I’ve got three soccer games this week. During that time, I’m trying to be a good husband. I’m involved in my church. I want to make an impact on our community. Gosh, Peter, it’s exhausting just even saying this, but, you know, by the way, I might try to squeeze in a round of golf, or something like that, that I enjoy doing. When I say that, sometimes from the outside looking in, you may think someone has everything right, or it’s all going right, but deep down inside, when you get to know someone, maybe there’s something still missing there. How would you respond to that?

Yeah, that’s a great question. There’s a lot there. I, you know, I can only speak from my own experiences, and so I’ll kind of just walk you through some of the things that I went through. I really was at a crossroads about seven years ago. I had just transitioned from being off the road, and actually took a pay cut to work with a local bank, and trying to establish myself, my footing here. Even though I grew up here and knew a ton of people, I hadn’t really immersed myself in the business community quite yet. And so I kind of had to start from scratch a little bit. You know, I went from doing $20-$25 million loans to doing truck loans for John and Johnny at $12,000 apiece. It was a little bit of a humble pie, if you will, in changing some of the ways in which I was working. And so that really kind of started to send me into kind of, I don’t want to say a tailspin, but just kind of, I had a bit of a purpose void in my life. And so it really got me thinking and asking questions: Questions of myself, questions of others. And I think all of us go through this. We probably do multiple different times in our professional careers. And I think it’s a good thing because what it does is it helps sharpen your understanding of what you do and why you do it, or you say, you know what, this was for me before, but this isn’t really for me anymore, and I do need to pivot or change course.

So, you know, I used a lot of the tools available. I took, you know, I dove into the Myers Briggs, did a lot of that. I read some books by Jeremie Kubicek. He wrote a book more recently, but I wish I would have had it seven years ago. It would have been perfect, but it really did help. It’s called The Peace Index, and he uses these just five areas basically of our life that, you know, they all, at coherency, they all work together, you know, place, purpose, you know, there are a variety of different things he describes, but I did the Myers Briggs. I, geez, I did like three or four of these different things. StrengthsFinder. That was actually a very helpful one for me, StrengthsFinder, because I found my top five strengths were input, belief, positivity, individualization, and learner. And so I leaned into some of these and had a better understanding of how I tick and why I’m interested in certain things and why I just have a natural instinct of leading in certain capacities and bringing people together.

And so those, you know, character assessments were very helpful. I use those. I’m a person of faith, so I leaned into books that helped me just kind of dive into elements of my spirituality and what I believe, and my faith. And so, obviously, the Bible was very helpful for me and having mentors. So for a couple of years, I was just kind of searching, and I just kind of came to a place where I was like, you know, I’m not really fulfilled in what I’m doing. I read this quote and I’m going to butcher it because it’s, I’ve shortened it some, but it’s basically like, “the worst possible thing you can do is be good at something that you really don’t like,” because what happens is you kind of get stuck in that hamster wheel of just doing it because you’re good at it, but it doesn’t bring you any sense of fulfillment.

And it’s different for everybody, you know? Some people will find the most fulfilling work they’ll ever do is being a secretary or being a teacher or, you know, being a farmer or being an accountant or whatever it may be. But I think it is important though periodically, every few years, to just kind of reassess or recalibrate to say, hey, why am I, you know, am I fulfilled here? Am I getting frustrated a lot more than I used to about things that maybe I didn’t before? Are there maybe some signs that are indicative that are happening in my life personally or professionally that are carrying over that is creating a bit of angst? I think those are signs where people are like, hey, I’m kind of raising the red flag here and maybe I need to do a little bit of soul searching. So I was there about seven years ago.

Yeah. Well, Peter, you know, you said a couple of things. One, that it’s natural, I think, you know, just even using that as a starting point that it’s natural that if we have this desire to want to do better and want to do good things that, you know, it’s totally fine to have those thoughts, and to take a step back and evaluate where you’re at. So, Peter, I read an article, this has been probably, gosh, a couple of months ago. And I don’t know how accurate this is, but even if it’s remotely close, you know, it really sparked some thought for me. And the article, it was along the lines that roughly about 70 percent of people are searching for purpose in their work. So if you’re leading an organization, or if you’re leading a team, or you’re interacting with others, if we know that people are searching for purpose, whether we like it or not, in a professional setting, we’re having an impact on them. So what advice or thoughts do you have on how can, as a leader or someone on a team, how can they help others find their purpose in their work?

Yeah. That is a super easy question to answer, so.

Maybe we’ll do two episodes, Peter.

Oh, man! I would say it first starts by knowing your people well, and knowing your people well means you have to know yourself well too. So you have to know yourself to lead yourself. I think that’s something that Jeremy, I referenced him, he says. But in order to do that well, I mean, first you have to know yourself, you’ve got to do the internal work yourself. And that can be a personal thing, that could be spiritual, professional, all of the above. And then I think when you take an interest in your people, like a genuine interest in your people, not a, okay, how can I take an interest in them and then leverage that or commoditize it for my gain and for the company’s gain? That is not a good thing to do. So take off the profitability hat and say, okay, how can I look at this person for who they are? Not necessarily for what they produce for me and for our company?

And I think just that starts with just meaningful conversations with those people and create a culture and an environment in your workplace where there’s just an understanding of people and what makes them tick, what excites them. It could be certain tasks. It could be certain types of meetings. There’s a variety of different things you can do. But I think you need to first know your people. And just ask them straight up, say, hey, what excites you? What are you most looking forward to in your work this year? Or what’s been really frustrating for you that maybe we could change or offload? I mean, every single position or job is always going to have a certain level of tasks and responsibilities that are not sexy or appealing. It’s just part of the job.

But I think going back to your question about purpose, I think employers have a tremendous opportunity to really tap into this, because a purpose void is found in most people, like you said, 70%. So what you have is the majority of people are looking for more meaning in what they’re doing. And so previous generations, the baby boomers and even the Gen Xers were like, just be quiet, grow, maximize profits. That’s what we’re doing. And so those that are listening that are in those generations, we celebrate you too because you built extraordinary companies and you’re still doing that to this day. So we honor that, absolutely.

But I think there’s a whole different set of responsibilities and, I would say just, you know, the environments in the world in which we live in, distractions, there are a lot of things clamoring for our time. And I think what is happening in society with all of these things is that people are just feeling a lot of weight. And so I think any way in which you can remove some of those weights from your employees can be very fruitful. And sometimes that’s helping them find great meaning or purpose in their work or possibly in what they do outside of work but then has a benefit in work, which could be volunteering, it could be something that they’re working on, a special project or something that might be, you know, kind of outside their job description, but they get really excited about.

And so I think, don’t be afraid to maybe approach some of your, you know, very task-oriented people with something very creative and just say, hey, what do you guys think about being a part of this? You know, what I have found is almost everybody’s creative, they just forgot. And so sometimes we’re so fixated on getting the job done or doing the task, that we lose sight of the creativity that can be involved in that. And people can find purpose in that because they are a part of that process. So yeah, there’s a lot there, but I think we have a great opportunity as employers to really lean into this conversation with our employees because I think people are wanting it and they’re craving it.

Yeah, well, gosh, Peter, just even the conversations, taking the time to do that and letting people know that you care about them, they are making a difference because I see it too often, Peter, where I think I’ve been that person before too, where you just feel like you’re trying to keep up with the work you have, and you miss out on those meaningful connections with the people that you work with. And without that communication, there’s going to be a lack of connection with your people. We miss out on those opportunities in that “status of busy” sometimes.

So let me throw this out. I’m going to go back. You said sometimes people are carrying weights and maybe holding them back or whatever that may look like for them. One of the things that I’ve watched a lot, honestly, Peter, I’ve felt this way at times—sometimes I’ll refer to it as the impostor syndrome of, gosh, like what value can I bring? Or I mentioned all those different aspects of our lives and we can be our own worst critics sometimes and beat ourselves up with, gosh, I’m not doing enough at home. I’m not being the best dad or I’m not keeping up with my work responsibilities. That’s a slippery slope to go down and I think again, sometimes for our own worst critics. Any thoughts on if someone is feeling that or going through that right now?

Yeah. I can’t remember where I heard this, I think it goes something like this: All feelings are real, some are true. So I think, as a person of faith, we use this term called discernment, you know, and so discerning what is true, what is false, what is real, what is not. But I think emotions, you know, emotions can be very good for us, but they can also be very destructive and damaging. And so again, I think sometimes maybe it’s as simple as just taking a pause and just saying, okay, why am I really frustrated about this? Or why am I always getting angry when I talk about this person or, you know, where is there angst or anxiety that is happening?

I think the other thing too is I think we just need to take a deep breath and give ourselves a break. You know? We’re four years removed from the beginning of COVID, but like the lingering ramifications of what that has done to the mindset of humanity, we’re still feeling the ripple effects of that. So I think we need to give ourselves a little bit of a break with that. And I think employers, again, you have a tremendous opportunity to humanize more and more of what you do in your offices and in your work. And I think it’s just by taking an interest in people. And I think as a leader, especially, you know your people, and if you don’t know your people, then shame on you, you should know your people. But if you know your people, hey, they’re not performing at the same level.

Well, the traditional response is, well, you’re not doing it this way, so we’re going to add more work or why aren’t you performing? We’re going to have a performance review and then we’re going to have to document it and this and that. It’s like, no, actually if you ask some questions of that employee, you realize he or she might be going through a divorce or their child is maybe, you know, has been diagnosed with a sickness or a disease, or maybe their parents are in hospice. I mean, you just don’t know. So if you ask questions and if you know your people, I think that gives a lot more context to everybody’s story.

We can’t compartmentalize our personal and professional lives. It’s absolutely impossible. And to ask people to do that is just foolishness, because it’s just not the way humanity works, you know? But we can also see that as an advantage because if we understand where people are coming from, it gives us better insight and perspective into who they are. And I think if we better understand who people are, then we can find ways to help, you know, support them and encourage them when they need it. And then when the time is right, you know, we can encourage them and motivate them to produce and excel in different ways too. So I think there’s a double benefit there if we just take the time and pause.

Yeah. Well, gosh, Peter, even you mentioned like knowing your people. Sam Allred, who started Upstream, I will never forget this conversation, we were talking about the topic of emotional intelligence and he had shared someone he knew that said, “Sam, you know, as you’re out talking with people, just know that at least half the people you meet are going through something you’ll never know anything about.” And Sam told me, he said, “I honestly think it’s probably closer to 80 or 90 percent of the people that we interact with or we meet. They’re going through something we will never know anything about.” And so even knowing your people, just knowing that there are those outside forces. And, Peter, I love how you said that our lives and we call it life work-balance, but it’s not really there. They’re all one. Work is one pillar of our life and there are a lot of other pillars in our lives. So I love how you described that.

Well, I think real quick with that too, just going back to the purpose void and tying that back in, again, I think the more that you can help your people connect who they are at home with who they are at work, that vocation, that meaning, that purpose and the fruitfulness in which they produce, I think is really important. One word I like to use a lot is “flourishing.” Like, is everybody that’s involved in the transaction, in the relationship, in the engagement, in the contract, does it result in flourishing on all ends? I do believe that is absolutely possible. I think that if we view those experiences, those relationships, those vendors, those partners, those clients, those employees, as people and we want to see the other side of this dialogue and dimension of a business relationship, whatever it may be, that everybody is flourishing at the end, I think that changes some of the approach and the dynamics. And this is not an excuse for like giving it 80 or 90%. No, this is still having a standard of excellence in everything that you approach, absolutely, but I think it’s with a mindset of empathy and compassion and understanding.

I think I remember reading the number one trait that CEOs must carry, the most important one, is empathy. It’s not drive, it’s not ambition, it’s the ability to understand and connect and relate to people. If you can’t do that well, you will not have employees who want to work for you. And then you’re going to be spending more and more money trying to backfill the back door because people are leaving quicker than they’re coming through the front. And then you’re going to build a reputation as someone who just burns through people. And so you can do that for the sake of whatever, but it’s just not going to be sustainable. It’s just a new paradigm.

But again, it’s an opportunity for growth and for leaders to really lean into that about, hey, are we a company that understands empathy and understanding people, not at the expense of excellence though, and production and profit. All those things are wonderful things. Those things create the ability to have those other things, but it’s doing it with an understanding about all of these things are important, not just one or the other.

Yeah. Well, Peter, as you described that too, it seems like that empathy is such a part of a people-first culture. If you’re connecting and understanding your people and Peter, just for a second here, I want to go back to the quote, and I probably did not capture it perfectly, but it was something along the lines of all of our feelings are real, but maybe they’re not true.

I think it’s feelings or emotions. All emotions or feelings are real, but some are true. I think it was a counselor that told me that. We actually were doing a panel at our church and we were having a discussion on mental health, especially in men, because guys don’t like talking about that kind of stuff. And he said something like that. I can’t remember if he said feelings or emotions, but he said, all of them are real, but they’re not all true. And that was really good.

Yeah. Are you familiar with John Gordon at all? The Power of Positive Leadership?

Yeah, I actually got to meet him last fall. He’s a great guy.

Oh, that’s right. I remember you mentioning that. And I share that with people because I’ll go back to the beating yourself up or feeling like maybe you’re falling short in an area. Yes, maybe those emotions, those feelings, maybe they are real because they’re hitting you. But if you step back and start thinking about, as in John Gordon’s book called the Positive Truth, of writing down what is the truth to the situation, you know, and again, sometimes I think we are our own worst critics. So even just stepping back and writing down those positive truths about, you know, how I’m being as a father, or how I’m being as a leader, or how I show up at work, sometimes helps us step back and take an outside perspective and to realize that maybe we are actually doing better than what we thought we were, and that can be a lift of some of those weights if we are beating ourselves up.

Yeah. You know, something interesting. So this is something I try to tell myself, like, stop measuring in days and weeks, measure in months and years, especially in parenting. Like, you know, because parenting is exhausting. I mean, and if you’re an employer, you’re parenting your children-employees, like I mean, you know what I mean? Like sometimes people are going to have really bad days or bad weeks. Just, you know, that’s okay. Measure in months and years. And it doesn’t mean like it’s not giving, you know, a green light for people to just be mean and rude. That’s not what I mean. But I think sometimes we’re a little quick to judge or come down on, or, you know, performance review ourselves or those around us. Just give people, I think, some space, seek first to understand. But yeah, we’re definitely our own worst critic. We are.

Well, Peter, let’s go back to the communication piece on this. And I say this, I don’t think this will come as a surprise to you or probably anyone listening, but without a doubt, communication has changed pretty dramatically over the past several years. And in a lot of ways, Peter, I think there are more ways to communicate than we’ve ever had before, but there’s really a lack of connection through our communication. So I guess from your perspective with what you’re doing with building a community of people, what do you think is causing this? Because there’s a lot of noise, but there’s not necessarily true connection. So what’s really driving that?

Well, listen, again, I’m a person of faith. I believe that we are created by God. And so scripture tells us we are created in the image of God, which is the Imago Dei. And so if we were created in God’s image, then we are created and designed for connection and relationship. And so digital technology has created such extraordinary efficiencies and opportunities and it will continue to do that. But there are certain places of the human condition that cannot be replicated with digital technology. And this is my personal belief, I know I’m probably a little bit biased because I’m leaning into a very analog publishing and gatherings and all these different things, but I will tell you there is a hunger and a desire for connection—true, meaningful, authentic connection—in the workplace, in the professional environment, in the spiritual, all of it.

And what COVID told us, or it really revealed, is that technology is not the answer. It’s just not. There are certain things that it does very well. I was just actually having this conversation with someone earlier today, and I said, you know, one of the things I love about Zoom is it’s really just enhanced the phone call. Like 50 percent of the time when you meet someone new, you say, hey, let’s schedule a call, half of those are Zoom calls now, which is really great because it’s elevated the phone call. But on the flip side though, we’ve realized we also get exhausted from staring at screens all day long. And so what this means for I think all of us culturally, and especially as leaders and employers, is that some meetings need to be in person. Some of them need to be off site. Sometimes you just need to feel, hear, and experience people for who they are in that space.

We’ve been doing these gatherings, and obviously we have a very specific audience where we’re primarily leaning in towards men and it’s these same subjects of faith, fatherhood, and work. We’re kind of the intersection of those three, but we’re pulling people that are super, super professional and experienced and successful from a variety of different industries. And these guys are like, oh, I’m not going to miss these. I’m not going to miss these. And I think it’s because people are designed for connection. And I think sometimes we have to be intentional about blocking out the noise, and that’s going to be different for everybody, but if there’s something that causes angst or maybe you go to it as a vice, then that’s probably something that’s causing anxiousness or maybe unnecessary busyness in your life. That could be apps, that could be social media, it could be email. I don’t know what it is. It’s different for everybody. But I think we need to incorporate and find rhythms of rest in our life where we’re disconnected from the noise.

And then, you know, going back, I said, as a person of faith, something we try to practice is Sabbath. And so one of the things that I’ve heard is if you are in a very professional space, which I’d imagine almost everybody listening to this, you’re in spreadsheets, you’re on computers, you’re in the office space, like take a time every week or every seven weeks do a couple of days where you’re just in nature, like whether it’s gardening or hiking or biking, where you’re just completely removed from what you do on a daily basis. It’ll re-energize you. And I think people are seeing that more and more, that is a necessary thing. And so if you can do that with other people, that’s a good thing too. That’s one of the great things about technology. Technology has leveraged the ability for people to learn about one another and find community. But real community and connection happens when you’re able to leverage that for things in person too.

Well, Peter, I mean, I don’t think this part is a big surprise either, but sometimes I think with communication today, in a lot of ways it builds more, I’ll say a gap or divide between people, and that’s within a team, it’s within a sports team or an organization or whatever it may be. If what’s happening today in, say, let’s just say a professional setting, and it’s building a gap or divide between how can we communicate in a way that builds more of a connection? Yes, we may disagree, but how can we interact in a way that, you know, let some of that’s okay. So I guess I’m just looking for a way to guide people on not being louder, but how do we bring people together?

That’s also a very easy answer.

Peter, I saved up every hard question for you. I promise I like you too, I’m not just—no, I’m just kidding.

No no, this is good. This is good. I love this. I think we live in a very divisive world right now. There’s a lot of areas of media, of school, of technology, of health care, it’s just very, very divisive. And most people would say it’s the media’s fault, well sure, but if we’re subscribing to it and buying into it, we’re part of the problem too, right? So that’s why I say, turn off the noise. I think what I would find is, try to connect with people, and I would imagine almost all of this can do this in our own space in the office: Just, you know, get to know people that are different than you, that look different than you, that talk differently than you, that maybe have a different upbringing or spiritual background or whatever it may be. And what you’ll find is you probably have about 95 percent of the things that you would agree on because I think just at our core, most people are rooting for one another. But there are just things that pull us away, that are unnecessary.

So I think the more that we can try to build bridges with the people, our coworkers, the people in our offices and our communities, it can be very fruitful, both immediately and long term. And so we’re leaning into that. And then even with your customers as a business, this is one of my favorite examples that I’ve heard. But Chewy.com, right? It’s an online food provider and medicine provider for people with pets. Well, they are known for when a pet dies of one of their customers, they send flowers and they, I mean, they go over the top. And I think it’s just like, well, they know and understand their customers, their people. They have created a human element to the way in which they do business.

And I think in a highly transactional commoditization of the business world, I think more and more ways where you can find touchpoints that are human, that are natural and real, that are buried into the DNA of a company, then I think you’re going to be very successful at that. And it starts with the way in which people treat each other, understand one another. And I think as leaders and as business owners, I think you have a great opportunity to set the tone and set the example for what that looks like. It doesn’t mean you need to have like a, you know, a town hall about how to bring Republicans and Democrats together. That’s not what I’m talking about. But like, I mean, you can do things where you can just bring people together that’s just, for the sake of having fun and just let those things happen naturally, you know what I mean?

Like, I don’t want to like critique too much, but like so many companies that this is how they do it. They say, oh, we’re going to have like a community or a company picnic and we’re going to do it. Well, what do they do? They choose a Saturday afternoon because it’s like, oh, well, heaven forbid we’d choose it on a Thursday at 2 PM because those are productive, profitable hours. Let’s take people away because we spend 40, 50, 60 hours a week with our coworkers and we want to spend more time on a Saturday rather than with our family. So here’s an idea, like rent out the local barbecue joint, invite everybody’s family at four o’clock, and just feast on barbecue from 4 to 6 PM. I mean, there’s just simple ways I think companies can do that, to really engage in building culture where people are respectful, understanding, and just get to know each other. And when that’s baked into the DNA of a company, really the opportunities are pretty extraordinary.

Now, gosh, even that example you shared. It was Chewy, was that the name of it?

Chewy. Yes. Chewy.com. It’s a warehouse. I mean, they don’t have stores. They’re literally just an online company. And when people subscribe and stuff like that, if they have someone that or their dog passes away, they send flowers and a gift. It’s incredible.

And it’s just showing that you care, you took 10 minutes to do it. It’s a small gesture that someone will probably never forget. And on the back end of that, Peter, my guess at what happens is they probably tell other people about that and the word spreads and then they are probably doing really well.

Yeah.

Just with that act of kindness. So I love that. Well, Peter, I promise I won’t make every question like a reflection on life and where we’re at. We’ll get a little lighter topic here. I say lighter, it’s, but you know, the work that you’re doing around faith, fatherhood, and work. I was able to attend one of your events and experience it myself. Could you maybe share one or two success stories? I mean, you don’t need to get into the details of names and stuff like that, but I think a lot of what we talked about, bringing it together of building community and that connection and helping people find purpose whenever finally people took the time, they blocked out that time to come together in an environment like that, what has happened? Tell us one or two success stories so people can see the end result of that.

Yeah, so we’ve done three of these locally. We’ve done a couple in other markets. We’re exploring some others. We call them Kinsmen Table, and so they’re invite-only gatherings. And it’s from a variety of different men from different ages, different demographics, different industries, different faith backgrounds. Some people have a very strong relationship in their faith, some people don’t really have one very much. Some people come from a Catholic background or Assemblies of God, Pentecostal, all of the above. But we’re bringing people together from our community.

And so one of the things that we’ve done is we have a session where we call it an honoring of men, where we just honor men that are in the room that are represented in our community. And so sometimes we give a gift to that person and just say, hey, we just thank you for what you do and who you represent. And for others, we, you know, if someone’s launching a business venture or is serving in a certain capacity in the community that maybe is underappreciated, we just, we celebrate that and it’s authentic and it’s genuine. We break bread, we eat, we fellowship, you know, we curate a space of excellence. I think when you create a space of excellence, people have a different level of response because there’s substance there. When the experience is cheapened, I think people recognize that. So I think there’s a spirit of hospitality that is really important.

But a couple of things we’ve seen, I mean, there’s in one of them, a couple of guys actually, it was a former CFO of a publicly traded company. He took them public. And there’s another guy that’s in the room. I’ve been wanting to get them together and it’s just been very hard. They’re very busy people, and he works for one of the largest private companies probably in Missouri. He’s the CFO. So, they were both coming to this event. So, I sat them by each other. I said, you guys need to get to know each other. And this is why. Now they meet like once a quarter in a mentor-mentee relationship.

Another example is a couple of guys in the room, one of these guys launched an organization where they work with youth in extreme sports, and it’s a ministry, but they’re just trying to create a space for kids to go and hang out where it’s not, you know, places where sometimes destructive behavior happens. So they created this really neat extreme sports place where they have one wheels and ramps and all this kind of stuff. I don’t even know how to do most of the stuff. But, anyways, they’re putting in this pond, or this mini lake, because they want to install a cable system for kids to learn how to wakeboard. Well, there was a guy in the room, and this guy was telling the story. Because I was like, hey, I just want you to share with the room a little bit about what you’re doing. It turns out, there was a guy who had just sold a property and had a cable system worth about $170,000, which he put in a storage facility, and he goes, “Hey, I have exactly what you need. You can have it. You can have this cable system.”

That kind of stuff doesn’t happen every day. That’s awesome.

No, it doesn’t.

And so, you know, I mean, I don’t believe in just happenstance. I believe those are, you know, divine moments. But when you bring people together, I think that’s what happens is people, I think, instinctively have a desire to help one another when it’s modeled before them. I think that’s how we’re wired. So, we’ve too often believed and given into this idea that we’re all super, super selfish and we’re always just looking out for ourselves. Yes, to an extent, but also I think we are much more generous than we realize we are. And I think when we experience that and see that firsthand, I think we want to be a part of that and do likewise. So, those are just a couple of examples of relationships and donor meetings. But there’s been a lot of other things too, just business partnerships that have formed, friendships just for the sake of being friends. People who are like, I didn’t know you were still here, or I didn’t know you believed this or that. And like, this is awesome. Let’s get together more often. So, it’s been a really neat meeting place for a lot of these men in our community.

Yeah. Well, Peter, I love hearing you describe that and talk about it. Ironically enough, I’m actually doing a presentation recording tomorrow on networking. But when you put the word “networking” on it, there’s a fear around it.

Oh, totally.

When you say building a community and you hear stories like that, you have to step back and say, this is critical to my life. It’s critical to my professional life, building community, and elevating others. It tends to have a way of working out. So, Peter, I love hearing that, hearing those stories.

Well, real quick with that, two quick references. For the spiritual, the law of the harvest, you know, you reap what you sow. You sow relationships, you sow resources, you sow fruit, you’re going to reap that harvest. I mean, that’s a principle of faith. But then if you’re like, hey, I’m not really into that, but I’d like to learn more about just generosity, there’s a series of books called The Go–Giver, just an incredible series of books about giving and serving and just watching what happens with people. When you serve someone so well, there’s just this obligation of like, okay, I got to take care of this person. But when you do it genuinely with no expectation in return, just watch what happens. You celebrate other people, you find ways to introduce people to others for the benefit of those two and not for yourself, but just watch what happens personally and professionally. It’ll blow your mind and it’ll compound over time too. So, anyways, I just wanted to put that quick plug in.

Well, Peter, our listeners probably won’t believe me when I say this. But Peter and I didn’t talk about that before this episode. Ironically enough, in that presentation, we’re talking about the book, The Go–Giver and the approach to networking.

Yeah.

And it breaks down the fear of it and highlights the importance of it. And it redefines what people initially thought building a network or a community was. Peter, you kind of answered my next question, but any other resources, whether that’s a podcast, book, or anything that has been very impactful in your journey that you would recommend to our listeners?

I’ve referenced a few different books that I thought have been really good. Another one for those who have an interest in spiritual disciplines is a book by the late pastor, theologian, and writer Eugene Peterson. He wrote a book called A Long Obedience in the Same Direction. It’s a fantastic book. It’s one that I read on an annual basis. I’ll also say that John Maxwell has written some really great books on leadership. Talent Is Never Enough is a really great one. There’s no shortage of great materials and resources out there, certainly, that I have found. As far as podcasts go, I really like the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. A lot of people are familiar with the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast. I really like podcasts where the interviewer asks great questions. I don’t like the canned book tour response podcasts where it’s like they’re just getting on the track. But like the person knows that and they just veer immediately and they know how to ask questions, and it’s like, oh, this is actually really good. How I Built This with Guy Raz is phenomenal. I mean, that is one of the best. I think you learn by observation and just by listening. So much of what I’m doing now in my life was because I spent hours and hours and hours taking in, reading, listening, observing, attending, watching—all of that. And it’s like, okay, now it’s my time to take off.

Well, Peter, I noticed you said great questions, not really hard questions.

Great can be hard too. No, your questions have been wonderful. I’ve enjoyed this. It’s been good!

Awesome. Well, Peter, as we wrap up here, if someone wanted to reach out to you or learn more about your work, how would they find you?

Yeah, so our website is kinsmen.org. I’m personally most active on LinkedIn. So, look me up on there. I really like LinkedIn. It’s a great platform. That’s another thing I’ll say too. If you have not been utilizing LinkedIn, I would strongly encourage you to. It’s still a very honest, truthful, encouraging, supportive social media platform. It really is. There’s some great content on there and people are really looking to do good things. So, I’d encourage people to get on LinkedIn and utilize it. It used to be like, oh, are you just doing it to up your career and move companies? Not at all. It’s not that at all. It’s really a great place for thought leaders to collaborate. I mean, there’s some people on there that are getting kind of weird. You just avoid those, but there aren’t too many.

Very good. Well, Peter, I greatly appreciate the time. As always, I enjoy the conversation. So, thank you for being on the show.

You bet. Thanks for having me. I’m really honored to be here.