Hello everyone and welcome to The Upstream Leader. My name’s Jeremy Clopton. Excited to be with you for a conversation about the role of learning and development in public accounting today. This conversation for me has been building over the past several months. As I have conversations with more and more firms that are looking to develop their future leaders, it seems like there’s almost an apathy toward developing leaders and saying, “You know what? That’s L&D’s problem. They’ve got a program for that, or we’ll hire somebody who’s got a program for that.” And it’s interesting because it seems to be coinciding with a longer track to get to some of these career milestones. So to have that conversation with me, I have invited Allyson Roote, who is the Vice President of Learning and Organizational Development at The Bonadio Group to join me for this conversation. Allyson, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Jeremy. So happy to be here.
Absolutely. Well, before we jump into this, I am going to start this episode the way that I start all the episodes, and that is: how did you become the leader that you are today?
Oh, that’s such a great question. I think it’s been an evolution for sure. I think that in the beginning of my career, I was very short minded, I want to say, in terms of where I was going to go and where I was headed, and I think one door opened, another closed. And continually throughout my career I’ve been able to progress and really move up, and I feel like provide a really good impact in the organizations that I’ve worked. I’ve been at The Bonadio Group for 11 years now almost, and it’s been a wild, really fun and engaging ride. And I think getting me to be the leader I am today is really the people that have been in my path have been pivotal to that entire kind of leadership philosophy that I have today.
Very good. I appreciate that. You mentioned having been at The Bonadio Group for about 11 years now; it’s interesting that we’re having this conversation because you all have your Future Leaders Academy, which is a remarkable program as it relates to the development of leaders. You’re a firm that has been growing significantly over the past several years, very good at the mergers and acquisitions, bringing in new firms, bringing in new people, developing, developing, developing. So what was interesting is I was on LinkedIn a couple months back, I saw one of your posts and it said that “The more time I’ve spent working in L&D, the less I believe training is the answer to most of the problems brought to us.” So I’m curious, where are you at on this? When you think about the role of L&D, and the problems that are supposedly learning problems? Where are you thinking these days? Where is your mind at on the development of people?
My mind goes to consulting, so partnering with our leaders across the firm. It’s not about, and this did happen for a very long period of time, it was filling out a course request form and pushing it through kind of a, I always relate kind of L&D in the early days to like manufacturing, like input/output, input/output. It was like, get the course request in, figure out what needs to be done, manufacture the course, and then get it out and then start again. But I think L&D has really transitioned and evolved over the years, and my head is really at, how can we really engage with firm leaders to help them help their people be better, to build the capabilities that they need to be successful in their roles, and very successful at transition points when they come? So that consultative approach to me is much more impactful and valuable to the firm than simply providing training.
Well, I would imagine that goes along with the idea that you can learn something, but that doesn’t mean you can actually do it. When you consult with someone and you’re working with them, you’re working to get them to apply what they’ve learned perhaps, or helping them take action based on whatever conversation has been had, how do you view, or how do you approach transitioning the viewpoint of L&D? Because I would imagine a lot of leaders, and I realize your firm is a very consultative firm in nature anyway, you have great people at The Bonadio Group, and I’ve had the privilege of working with several of them over the years. I would imagine though, that there was still a bit of a transition point when you had to start getting people to think about L&D as, “Okay, we’re consulting with you to help you get to where you want to be. We’re not a producer of content,” like you said, that manufacturing approach. How did you get leaders on board with that change in mentality?
So, I don’t want to sugarcoat this: It’s not easy, and I think there’s still an element of, I mean, we’re professional services, there’s certain learning that has to happen. I’m not pushing back on every learning request that comes in, that’s not my role. My role is to partner with them, and really feel like the stakeholders are folded into the process, they’re not the recipient of whatever X may be. So I really want them to feel that we are partners with them on this journey in understanding their side of the business, which I think is critical for learning and development to build trust and their own level of competency and understanding what the business pain points are, what are the service lines going through that are challenging for them, and how can learning and development help support that?
So I don’t know that we’ve actually landed in this perfect place of, yes, we’re consulting with you and we’re partnering with you, versus sometimes you just have to do the training. I think there’ll be an element of that is always there and always present, because there’s CPE involved and there’s certain courses that need to route, there’s new legislation, there’s stuff that has to happen. But at the entry point that we have, when we can be more consultative, I’m really encouraging my team to go in that direction and understand better before we’re delivering or diagnosing.
And I guess that would be a bit, this separation, as you’re saying, and I’m thinking that’s the separation between the L and the D. There will always be learning, sometimes it’s just knowledge transfer. We need you to understand this thing because like you said, it’s legislative, it’s a rule, you just simply have to know it. Development though goes well beyond learning. And before we dive into that, I want to touch on something you just said that is so important for L&D to understand the service lines and their side of the business. How do you go about doing that? Because I would imagine people within the firm are busy, so it’s not as easy as just saying, hey, we’re with L&D, we’d love to shadow you for the next week and just see everything that you’re dealing with. So how do you actually apply that in a practical way within the firm, so that L&D and your professionals on your team are able to truly understand the business side of it without just being embedded in doing the work? Or is that the approach?
Yeah, so there’s a few things that happen. So we attend obviously the quarterly meetings that the service lines have with their whole service line and making sure that we are part of that, that there’s an aspect that we’re present and presenting on a topic that’s relevant to the whole service line, but we’re also being good listeners and engaging in the content and the challenges that are coming up and the conversations that are happening. We also do our own quarterly business reviews, so my learning specialists are aligned with the service line. So they’re in constant contact with the folks that are doing the work and that are managing and leading the work and understanding what’s going on, and then how can learning and development really support some of that. We also have training directors that sit directly in the service line. So it’s not like learning and development is in a little bubble, doing our own thing, we have individuals that actually sit and report into the service lines that are part of learning and development, and they are responsible for the technical training that is happening within those functions.
That’s such an important detail that I’m glad that you highlighted, that in order to really understand it, you’ve got to be in it. It’s not something where you, like you said, you can’t stay in your bubble, and candidly, we see that even between service lines and trying to get leaders to understand what’s everybody else within the firm do? You can’t just stay in your own place. You’ve got to get out and engage and really drive that conversation. So I would imagine that helps you understand better what learning needs to take place. You had also mentioned, I know I’ve seen you write about, again, the idea that “a program is not the same as development.” It’s great to put it out and put all the structure and all the things. But that doesn’t actually mean someone develops. So help me understand, how do you approach development so that it doesn’t feel like another compliance activity? “Okay, I did the thing, I went through the program,” but how do you actually create an environment where people want to develop and are successful in doing so?
I love that question. It can’t come from me, it’s got to come from the top, and I feel strongly that this firm has been so dedicated to development and not just where I can say, oh, it’s part of our strategic plan, but it’s truly embedded in everything that we do in each of our four cornerstones: people, growth, excellence, client service. There’s nothing in there that doesn’t support the person as a whole. And because the firm leaders feel so strongly about learning, then learning becomes part of the culture. And if learning’s not part of the culture and aligned with the culture, then it’ll never work. It can’t sit ancillary to everything else. It’s truly got to be part of, like when Bruce Zakaria, our CEO, said several months ago that L&D is the new R&D, I think I got goosebumps, like I nerded out over that, because I was like, oh, we’re getting there! We’re actually moving the needle on that! Because as I said previously, we’ve really, when I first entered the firm, it was very much like input output and getting things in and getting the training out there. But I do feel through our programs like Future Leaders Academy, it’s become, it’s not a program, it’s part of the greater system. And I think that’s an important distinction too, that learning and development is tied to the whole in terms of the firm. So we’re really focused on developing our talent pipeline through programs like Future Leaders Academy versus just a program. And people feel really connected to that when they get into Future Leaders Academy, which has been running for six years now, they feel as though that’s, people have told me this, that they’ve made it, like I’ve gotten here and now I’m in this program and now I know what’s on the other side of it for me, potentially, which is potential partnership.
That’s outstanding. You said that it’s not just a program, but it’s got to be part of the broader system. How did you know when L&D became part of the broader system, not just another program? How can a leader tell?
I actually think it was pretty obvious to me, because our COO, Bob Enright, who I report to, he said, Future Leaders Academy will be your legacy. And I was like, really? He feels so strongly about the program, and how it positions people, and how the leadership gets to really see people develop to be like, okay, yes, this person is ready for a partnership, or they’re not there yet, but here’s how we’re going to get them there. Again, because it’s tied to the talent pipeline, it’s not just a standalone program, and we’re hoping for the best, but we’ve spent time intentionally working with the senior leaders across the firm to really identify what are the capabilities that we’re trying to develop in our leaders to get them there? Not just what we think is nice to have, but truly what is foundational for them to be successful as a partner. And the program really, it’s evolved over time, it’s still evolving, there’s so much that we’re adding to it this year, but it focuses on leading self, leading others, and leading the firm. And it’s a rotating program, so individuals enter while others are graduating, so it has to be a program that doesn’t build your one year, two, year three, it has to be like any entry point is going to get you there.
Yeah. So what role do your firm leaders play? Because you said that getting the leadership buy-in at the top is critical to this, and I am a very strong believer, it can’t just be the leadership talks about it, they’ve got to live it out. And I would expect that is true for you all. So what role do the firm leaders play in ensuring that this is not just a program but it’s part of the broader system?
Yeah, so our executive committee has worked very closely with other firm leaders to identify a nomination process for this, for Future Leaders Academy. And it’s pretty robust, and tied to eventual goals that they will have as a partner, aligned with the whole kind of partner pipeline that we’re building too. And also the executive committee serves as sponsors to individuals throughout the program. So again, there’s a close tie in connection to the participants of the program with executive committee members, and the executive committee also facilitates the session, so they spend a significant amount of time working on creating that content and really ensuring that they’re delivering on what they want these people to really know and understand about the firm and where they’re headed.
Yeah, so they’re incredibly invested in it. It’s not a, hey, let’s have you go put this together and teach it, and we’ll sit over here and just watch people be like, you said, more of a manufacturing, we’ll just watch you output leaders.
Right.
Instead, they’ve said, we’re a partner in this. How do we work with you to ensure that this is accomplishing our objective?
Yeah, and that was important from the beginning, that they were leading it, that it wasn’t run through my team, Bonadio University, or it wasn’t run through someone that we were using externally, but it was truly, you’re hearing from the leaders who have sat in your seat, that have grown the firm, that have done the work to get to where they are, and they want to invest in that next level of leadership.
Yeah. That’s such an important point, I think, that separates what you all are doing from a lot of others, is that investment is not small, but it’s been prioritized. And it’s an important differentiator there. You mentioned Bonadio University, and I know we’ve talked right now kind of more about the Future Leaders Academy, let’s broaden the discussion just a little bit around Bonadio University. How do you see an internal structure like that? How does it fit within the ecosystem of learning and development and not just as you said earlier, it’s not just manufacturing content: hey, we need this course, let’s produce that course, but it’s still focused in on that consultative aspect. How do you use your structure for that?
So my team has definitely grown over the years. We continue to add to support where the firm is headed. And we are a team of nine, so it was just myself, I think when I started with the firm. Like what are we going to do with Allyson?
Well you’re going to stay busy!
Just reading the employee handbook over here. No, I’m kidding. There’s been definitely a lot of work. So the team really focuses on a lot of different things and depending on their specialization, and I’ve spent some really intentional time over the past several months carving out what I think is a good restructure of the team. At first, everyone was reporting to me, there was so much work to be done. It’s like someone joins the firm, it’s like, oh, we’re just going to keep the reporting structure the same. And then that worked until it didn’t, and then I became the bottleneck and kind of communication wasn’t flowing. So I’ve created this operations and analytics arm of Bonadio University and then this design and experience. So individuals sit within one of those kind of two sub-teams, within Bonadio University, and a lot of that consultative approach is very focused on our intake. So we’ve since evolved too, and I keep referring back to it as a course request form, but we’ve even changed the language that we’re using. So it’s not a course request form, it’s simply a request form that’s coming in, so we’re not so targeted to just the training.
And I’ll give you an example: So we had a request for in person and virtual professionalism, right? So how to basically show up being a professional. And we kind of looked at this like, is this really a training issue or is there something else going on here? And after we did a little bit of digging, asked some more diagnostic questions, we were really able to determine that this wasn’t a learning session that needed to happen, that it was really an opportunity for us to better level set through our own employee handbook and guidance from different leaders, that this is how you show up as a professional. And it was more or less communication and kind of marketing of that versus sitting through a training on how to be a professional. So there’s a little bit of that back and forth.
Interesting, okay. So L&D is also, in a weird way, it’s a little bit like an ideal client. You’re guarding the front door to make sure you only bring the right clients into the firm. You’re doing the same thing as it relates to training opportunities is, hey, let’s make sure this is actually the right type of a training opportunity for us to pursue. Not just how do we manufacture more.
Correct, yeah, I mean, essentially you could say we’re putting ourselves out of business here, but I honestly don’t feel like that’s the case because if we’re pushing back and saying, this isn’t learning, we’re actually providing more value to the firm in the long run.
Absolutely. What is your firm leadership’s role in Bonadio University? I would expect that they still stay connected in that way towards, there’s some participation to continue to reiterate the fact that’s part of the culture.
Yeah, so as I said earlier, I report to our COO and I think that was very intentionally done when Bonadio University was formed. We didn’t want it kind of packed under another department. It could easily go into, I don’t know, a lot of learning functions fall under HR and nothing wrong with that, but I think this was an opportunity to be like, learning is very important to the firm. We want it to be front and center with our other enterprise functions. So I meet with our CEO monthly, like there’s a direct tie to Bonadio University and the larger firm, in terms of the leadership. So, and the support for that, and really understanding what’s coming out of Bonadio University, how we can better support the firm, where the firm is headed in terms of growth and opportunity.
Very good. Alright, we’re going to switch gears just a little bit. I’m going to ask you to take your crystal ball out for just a moment and look to the future of L&D in the profession. We’ve got all the chatter about changing ownership structures and artificial intelligence and outsourcing, and now everything is changing and changing and changing and evolving and all these things. I know I have my very strong opinions as to the future of L&D and people as a whole within our profession. I’d love to know, when you look out 3, 5, 10 years, what do you see in the L&D space and the role that it plays in the future of the profession?
So I get excited about this because I feel like especially, even within accounting, like that whole advisory piece within accounting is just blowing up. So then I see parallels to where that fits with learning and development. I’m like, this is actually a very exciting time to be in learning and development, because I think the consultative piece that I’ve been talking about throughout our conversation too, is just going to grow and enhance and have greater impact, in terms of where we can provide the greatest value to the firm. So I do see learning and development, especially with AI really adding value with these human capabilities, emotional intelligence, adaptability, change management, critical thinking skills, decision making, like all of those things really being central and important to how we show up as humans, and the importance of just providing resources to be better at being human, if that makes sense.
It does!
Because there’s so much right now that is just like, I don’t want to say anti-human, but it’s just like the opposite of how we’ve learned to show up for so many years. It’s just like it goes back to that input output. It’s just like output, output, output, get it out there and make it perfect. And it doesn’t have to be, I think there’s opportunity here for learning and development to really lean into the human side of what we do and make things even better and add greater value to the firms that we’re serving.
I absolutely love that, and I completely agree. The human element becomes our differentiator and how we connect with people and relationships. Those are still very human things, and I believe it’s easy to get caught up thinking about what AI will replace, but I tend to prefer, what will it not replace and how can we plan around that? And I’m with you, it’s an L&D, it’s how do you become better at being human? How do you become better at being consultative and advisory and connecting and all of those things? So I appreciate that.
I do think, I just want to add one more thing too. I think that learning and development, like people say, oh, well now anyone can create a course, and anyone can just go to AI and create something really quickly, so you don’t want to be the bottleneck, so we still want to make sure we’re moving things in an appropriate fashion. But I also think that just because people can create content that they shouldn’t necessarily be creating content. So there’s a lot to that, because it’s the whole “can/should” thing and not everyone is now an instructional designer just because they have access to the greatest AI tools. So I just want to throw that out there because I think there’s a lot of danger that we can go down in terms of that slippery slope.
Absolutely. Well, and I would even say a little bit more directly that if you find yourself saying that you might want to look in the mirror and consider what could AI do that you do as well?
Yeah, very true.
I know I’ve heard some professionals, some folks in our profession, they’re like, oh, AI can create that. It’s like, AI can also do what you’re doing, but we don’t want that to happen, so why would we want it to happen to us?
Right. Right.
And it doesn’t mean that it’s the right way or the best way. I love what you just said there. It’s a can and should. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
Right.
And that’s a very important lesson, I think. As we look to conclude this discussion, I’m curious when you’re looking for resources, say somebody’s listening to this and they’re thinking, you know what, we’re not there yet. We’re still trying to build out the structure that supports this and starting to build things out to get leadership involved and really add structure to what we’re doing. Any resources that you recommend? Books, podcasts, articles that you think are incredibly valuable for folks in the L&D space?
Yeah, so a few, because I love research and I love reading and listening to podcasts, so definitely Running L&D Like a Business by Tracy Cantu. She also has a podcast, as well as a great LinkedIn page. And then anything Dr. Keith Keating wrote, two books on The Trusted Learning Advisor and Hidden Value within Learning and Development. Just really great, not theoretical, just very practical, immediately applicable tools and resources. Highly recommend both of those authors.
Wonderful. We will get those in the show notes for sure. Well, Allison, thank you so much for this conversation. I have really enjoyed it. I appreciate you taking some time to discuss this with me, and hopefully we can continue to talk L&D as the years progress and we see where everything goes.
I’d love that. Thanks, Jeremy. I appreciate being here.
