Episode 100:

Hello everyone, and welcome to The Upstream Leader. I am more excited than normal—and I know many of you are thinking, well, Jeremy, you’re always excited for the podcast, which is obviously true, I am always excited for the podcast. But today is episode number 100. We have hit the century milestone, which I don’t know if I thought we would ever record a hundred episodes. I don’t know that I didn’t think that we would, I guess it just wasn’t in my mind when we got this thing started many years ago. But for today’s episode, it’s going to be a bit of a reflection and a look forward. And I’ve got our producer Justin Grant with me here today. Justin, welcome back to the show.

Thank you Jeremy. 100 and going strong, and nice to think I was with you at the beginning, I am with you here now with a little hiatus in the middle, but that’s alright. We made it here!

Hey, we all got back to where we needed to be. Yeah, it’s hard to believe that I was looking back because I knew that it had been a while. Obviously we’ve been going quite a while, we kind of took a season approach at the start, and then we switched to the different cadences, and we’ve really settled in over the last probably 40 or 50 episodes on twice a month production. But it was March of 2021 when we launched this thing, which means you and I were talking about how to launch this podcast probably in late 2020, early 2021, because that was a bit of a process that arguably was a lot more of a process than I thought it would take just to start a podcast. It sounded so simple.

It does, doesn’t it? Until you get into it and realize, okay, actually, there’s a ton of planning to do here.

Yeah.

I mean, gosh, we were discussing, well, you guys actually, full credit to you. If I’m remembering right, you came up with the name The Upstream Leader, and we loved that from the start, and so that was awesome. And then of course we had to go through, alright, well, we want to incorporate Upstream Academy’s brand, but we want this to be its own thing that stands on its own as well, so designing the artwork around the show and helping facilitate music choice and our voiceovers and all those sorts of things. We had so many tasks, as well as just, right, how are we approaching the show? What’s the overall philosophy of the show? What kind of format are we going to have? There were so many things to go through and, you know, it was a lot of fun getting that all started and getting it launched and the creative aspect of all that. I just really enjoyed it and I’m glad we got to share in that together.

Definitely. And I remember when we started it and it may have been the first time that we talked, you know, you’re like, “Well, why are you starting a podcast?” And I remember thinking, “Because I like podcasts, why wouldn’t I start a podcast?” Which is arguably probably not the best reason to start a podcast, which, you live, you learn. I knew I wanted to do something to connect with people, connect with the audience, and I’ve got to say, it’s been more connection than I actually ever thought. I love when I go to a conference, I go to a client, and somebody says, “Oh, well, wasn’t that episode 84? Or wasn’t that episode 52, where you were talking about this, and our team was listening to that as we were driving to this other thing.” It’s such a neat experience that we’ve had the ability and the privilege to really share what’s really become stories.

And I think that’s the part that I’ve fallen in love with the most about the podcast, Justin, is initially it was, all right, we do leadership development, we do strategy and all those things, so let’s talk to people about the action items, and it was almost more teachy at the start, if I could use that non-word. And I really started to find that I don’t actually want to teach anything with the episodes, or at least that isn’t now my focus. It probably was the first season, maybe even into the second season, but I really thoroughly now enjoy just talking to interesting people, and finding their story. And the power of that opening question that we always ask—and you’re one of the guests that when we asked that question, “What made you the leader that you are today?” we went a completely different direction than I had ever imagined. And that’s happened so many times. And I think it’s because it allows people to let their guard down and just tell their story in their own way, and it’s not something that we necessarily get to do in the regular course of business. But it’s so important for leaders to be able to show up authentically and tell their story. And I’ve really loved being able to do that.

Just the directness of the question, it really invites some reflection. You have to really kind of dig and think deeply about what is it exactly that’s gotten me to where I am now—and on this podcast as well. The story aspect, it’s funny too because my recollection is you had just not long before we began to develop this concept, been on with Randy Crabtree on The Unique CPA, is that right?

I had, yes.

And so he went through a similar kind of transformational process of what was the point of the podcast in the beginning into, again, really focusing a lot on people’s stories and the impacts they’ve had on the profession and on others, just creating a kind of community, which is exactly what’s happened with The Upstream Leader.

Yeah, and it’s so fun to be able to create a community. Even though we don’t see our listeners, we don’t necessarily get together. Obviously, we see a lot of our clients and a lot of our clients are listeners. You can feel that sense of community, the comments when the guests share theirs on LinkedIn and just the comments about, “Oh, that was the conversation, and here you tell it that way.” You know, there was a recent episode, even being challenged as the host, right? There was one of the episodes recently where I interviewed Meg Myers Morgan and she said, “Well, why do you do that?” We were talking about different things with the kids and whatnot, and the future and all of that. And I remember thinking, okay, I’m, for starters, supposed to be the one asking the hard questions, but darn if that isn’t a great question. And it was so much fun just to be able to have that interaction and, you know, even tell my story from time to time, which is incredibly exciting.

It’s definitely been through an evolution from where we started to where we are today, and I feel really excited about the next hundred episodes. I think there’s a lot to explore. I know some of the guests that we’ve got lined up are going to be very much storytelling in a way, and their experience and what they’re doing and learning about the leader’s mindset. Not so much, well, here’s a book on a leader’s mindset, but, “Hey, you’re a leader going through this.” What are you thinking about? How are you approaching it? There’ll be some education obviously along the way as well, but I’m excited to see what the next hundred stories have in store, because it’s been a lot of fun so far.

Well, I am too. It certainly has. And yeah, glad to hear that long will it continue.

Oh, yes, definitely. And I mentioned that we started this thing in March of ’21. When we were getting ready to record this, we’ve kind of gone back and forth and thought, “Okay, well, if we look back, what’s changed in the profession?” I remember thinking it’s ’21, that’s post-pandemic. It’s not really post-pandemic. If you think it was March of ’21, we were a year in, so it was still in the midst of it. But I went back and did a little research as I am one to do, and some things that have changed the profession, if you will, just a little bit, perhaps, since March of ’21 when we started this thing.

For starters, ChatGPT was still a year away from being launched. So this thing that is now “everything” for so many people, it’s just constantly there, generative AI, all of that, that didn’t even launch until 2022. Private equity successfully entering, so the Eisner Ampner transaction occurred after we launched this podcast. Firms still had yet to really go through the Great Resignation or at least get all the way through it. That was starting, everybody was trying to figure out what do we want to be? Where do we want to be? We were still, a lot of folks, very remote, you know, now it’s hybrid.

Yeah, I think that was where people started to realize, but it hadn’t fully taken hold yet amongst the workforce.

Yeah, that phrase “new normal” was starting to be thrown around, although I think nobody realized that A, there was no new normal, and B, we were far from figuring that out in March of ’21. But I look back as well, I went to the IPA lists, and everybody knows that I tend to like my data a little bit, and in 2021, it was still the top 400 firms, now it’s the top 500 firms. So I was looking back at some articles. In 2021, numbers 5 through 100—so we’ll exclude the Big Four as most do in their calculations—represented, I think it was somewhere around $25, $26 billion in revenue. That was numbers 5 through 100 on the list. Now, numbers five through 20 exceed that and how much revenue they represent. So our profession has changed significantly in the makeup. I mean, number 100 when we launched this was around $40-ish million in revenue. Now number 100 is up over $60 million in revenue. And now we’ve got 15 billion dollar firms, probably at this point, I mean, that was the latest list and we know how quickly that changes in our profession, there are now 15, $1 billion or greater revenue firms. I mean, it is a different landscape out there.

That’s remarkable, isn’t it? And just listening to those numbers, particularly as you get to 100. So, I mean, yes, obviously still big firms—but not the ones that are right near the top—and a 50 percent increase in four years on where that bottom line is? That is remarkable. And that’s without even getting into everything that’s below 100, where we know we’ve seen a lot of advancement and growth too. So even in the midst of, you know, what was an outright panic at some points about the pipeline problem and everything else, it just seems like, when has there ever been a better time to be in the accounting profession?

That’s the way I look at it, looking at the growth of the firms, as I tell people, because I get asked a lot, “Hey, what about consolidation? What does that mean for what you do? What does it mean for our profession?” All those things. The IPA Top 500, still 500 firms. Like I said, they went from 400 to 500, they didn’t go from 400 to 300.

Right.

They expanded the list, because now there’s more firms, they’re in that size range. Yes, there are changes, tons of changes abound, but there is still plenty of great things happening for firms that want to be independent in our profession. I mean, looking at the Top 500 and I mean, getting into that list, like I said, I think there were maybe it was 65, 66 firms that have at least $100 million in revenue. I mean, there’s so much great opportunity in the profession, and hey, that’s just in the U.S. I’m not considering everything else. We work with a lot of Canadian firms. There’s a ton of phenomenal Canadian firms. And they’re starting to see some of the changes that we saw, and you know, the growth there.

I really do think that, you know, looking back over the last four years, there’s been a lot of, maybe angst is the right word, concern, panic, as you said, that people see all of these things happening and taken individually, it’s easy to extrapolate that out and say, “Oh my gosh, everything’s changing, everything is so different or bad or whatever it may be,” but really what arguably, it looks like we’re actually in a good spot. We’re growing. I mean, the pipeline is increasing again. I think I saw that accounting enrollments, it’s now three semesters in a row have gone up, which is outstanding. So despite all of the change, I feel like we’re in a really good spot, maybe even a better spot profession-wise than when we started this show four years ago, four and a half years ago.

I think that’s pretty undeniable, not even just relying on the numbers, but just kind of the feelings I was referring to and panic was a strong word, but I mean, I just remember a period there where, gosh, it seemed like the doom and gloom was just nonstop and seeing things turning around like this. And also, I feel like this show offers a nice opportunity to when you’re getting pinged by these changes here and there and everywhere, and it’s like every day there’s something new, this is here to help you take a step back and kind of see the whole forest rather than the individual trees coming at you, and put it all into perspective a little bit. That’s certainly, even as you’ve gotten into the more deeply personal and story-focused episodes, continuing to bring a lot of important information and perspective. So definitely something that has helped that along, has been this remarkable recovery from, I mean, just in the midst of that first few months, just how we all felt. And now there is great reason for optimism and I’m just thrilled to see it.

Yeah. One thing that hasn’t changed and perhaps if it has changed, I would say maybe it’s just become even more important is that ability to share stories with one another, to understand individuals, because the importance of people has not gone down. Yes, we have technology. Yes, we have all of these things. Do I think it’s changing our profession? Absolutely. Are firms bigger and all of that? Yes. But what the best firms realize is it’s still all about the people, it’s still all about relationships, it’s still all about connection, not just being connected. And I talked about that a few episodes ago—that doesn’t change.

And that’s one of the things that I’ve noticed over the past few years of the show is, when we tell the stories that get more personal, that get more vulnerable, that get more authentic, people really find connection with that, and I find that it helps them be more authentically themselves. And I know that authenticity is one of those phrases that gets thrown out a lot. So I don’t want it to be authenticity in the academic sense, but they can really lean into the fact that, “Hey, I can be me, I can show up and I can have a great career doing that, because I’m hearing these stories of other people that have been where I’m at, or they’ve struggled with it or that struggled with that, and they’re doing great things. Why can’t I?”

Yeah, why can’t I, and just knowing someone out there has done it—and oh yeah, they’re not an absolute superhero who just has an incredible ability to do this or that, they’ve struggled in many of the same ways, and had similar obstacles to overcome. The availability of that kind of reassurance in a world where each of us, whether we admit it or not, is suffering from at least a little bit of imposter syndrome, it is a tonic, isn’t it?

Yeah, it really is. And it’s similar, I would say: You listen to those stories, it’s a bit of the same lesson of getting to a hundred episodes. You’ve got to commit to keep going and you’ve got to say, “Okay, what’s next? What’s next?” And that does not mean blind persistence. I spoke at our Headwaters conference this summer on quitting. I actually did a whole keynote session on why we should quit. And that’s something that we even learned along the way with this show is there are certain things that we got to keep doing. I’ve got to keep asking that question. “How did you become the leader that you are today?” Because it unlocks something. I’ve got a couple more questions that I’m thinking about adding to the end of the podcast for the next hundred episodes that build on that just a little bit, but it also starts to reframe some things. We’ve also realized along the way, man, we probably got some things we should quit doing. We shouldn’t be quite so academic. We don’t want to make it feel too rigid. We want it to be conversational. We’ve got to approach it in a consistent way. We don’t have to take time off from a podcast.

I remember we had those conversations early on. It’s like, well, we should give people a break. Or they just don’t listen right now, and then they’ll catch up. And again, it’s one of those mindsets though that you think it’s like, well, I’m working with accountants, how on earth could I release a podcast in April? The same way that you would release a podcast in June, you hit publish, and they choose whether or not they hit play. It’s those mindsets though, right? Those beliefs that we have that, well, we can’t do it this way, we can’t do it that way, we’ve got to learn, okay, we’ve got to quit that, we’re going to keep doing the thing, but we’ve got to quit how we approach it. It’s not too dissimilar to leadership, really.

No, and as you also alluded to earlier, the show has not had—well, it does now—but it did not for a while have a great deal of consistency for a period. And I know there’s a lot going on, and it can get kind of pushed to the back burner. Important things that make a difference, particularly when you’ve got deadlines looming and work piling on top of other work that you haven’t gotten to, things get pushed to the side, but that, again, that happens to everybody. And so, even though there was some time there where there wasn’t a regular release, you’ve kept at it, just continued to have the show grow with you and your understanding, and, you know, it was not too long ago as well that the show cracked the top 10 percent according to ListenNotes. So one of the top 10 percent of podcasts worldwide, it’s a pretty cool title to hold.

Yeah. And beyond that, I still love it though when people just say, “Hey, that was meaningful.” Somebody asked me recently on a presentation, why do I do what I do, and what inspires me to do it. And it’s having somebody reach out and say, “That meant a lot. That really helped me in this way.” It’s helping somebody. And that’s really what the show’s become. I’m curious, Justin, I want to put you on the spot here. You think back, you’ve edited and produced, oh, I’d say two thirds of the episodes, maybe?

Probably.

There was a hiatus where I was like, oh, I can, I can be a great podcast producer. Turned out I could be a mediocre podcast producer. I could not be a great one. That is, that is not my strength. That is definitely your strength. Which episodes jump out at you as some of your favorites? I’m curious.

Well, I tell you what, actually, one that I was reminded of, because this person just appeared—again—on The Unique CPA on Randy’s show, was episode number one, Courtney De Ronde. And you had talked to her about—it’s actually kind of thematic to what we’ve been discussing—is recharging. When you’re always go, go, go, and you’ve always got work piling on, how do you kind of have a little zen and breathe and get yourself back to the mindset you need to be in to be an effective outputter of productive time rather than having your hair on fire, and everybody knows by now, all the research says you’re making yourself less efficient when you don’t give yourself that chance to recharge. So, I know that sounds cliche to choose the first episode, but it was actually quite serendipitous that I’m like, “Oh yeah, of course. I remember that episode!”

So that was one. I also really enjoyed, pretty early on, with Grace Horvath. She was a great guest. And that theme, little did we know, her whole episode was about connection, and you just did have a really, really good solo episode where clearly your thoughts and understanding of what that really means has evolved, and so for you, drawing that distinction between connectedness in the technological sense and actual real, human connection on a person-to-person level, it is so easy to miss a detail like that with how we feel like we’re surrounded by people, even when we’re working remotely, whatever the case may be, that it’s such a distinct thing. And so, yeah, I thought that was a pretty cool kind of coming together of old episodes and new ideas in this new paradigm of the show that we have now.

Yeah, no, it’s definitely been good.

And then one that I wasn’t around for was John Garrett, because I mean, who doesn’t like John Garrett?

It’s John Garrett. How do you not enjoy a conversation with him?

Exactly.

But, I still reference that discussion regularly when I’m talking with leaders and what he said about it takes 40 seconds to have a meaningful interaction with somebody. 40 seconds. “How was your weekend?” Actually listen and care about the response. I can’t tell you how many times I have probably referenced that since that episode.

Yeah, and he’s just full of brilliant perspective in that respect, so I was sorry I had to miss that one, but no, a really, really good episode. I think those are a good solid three that I’ve really had stand out in my mind over the years.

Yeah, those were fun. All very, very good episodes. I know I’ve enjoyed the ones where we really got into the, like I said, more the story. Randy Crabtree jumps out. I mean, I’ve been on Randy’s podcast obviously before and I think it may have been on our podcast that we really first explored mental health as a topic with him and he really opened up about the, “How did you become the leader that you are?” That question really opened up a conversation that he hadn’t had a lot before publicly. And it was a meaningful conversation, it was a difficult conversation. I know, it was heavy, but that led to really just so many great things. We’ve talked with Randy and had him at conferences and various things subsequent to that. I know you produce his show, if I recall correctly, and you’ve, you know, how he’s been able to open up on that. That was incredibly meaningful. That was an early episode as well.

Yeah, well you had two, as I recall, with him that were not too far apart. And yeah, the mental health one was pretty early on.

Yeah. And it wasn’t designed to be that—we were talking about something else first, and then we came back and discussed that because it really unlocked, hey, we need to have a deeper conversation about this. The conversation with Ifen Donovan was another one—it was the first one that we really broke up into two parts, just because it was, it was a heavy episode on, it was on mental health and how to work through that. That was one that I know I’ve had a lot of people mention just how it allowed them to utilize it in a way that was meaningful. She really unlocked something talking about the way that she approaches mental health. I think that was incredibly valuable.

I really enjoyed some of the solo episodes and some of the collaborative ones that Heath and I did over the years where we just kind of took a topic and riffed on it, really explored what does it mean? What are we seeing, getting the thoughts out there and then figuring out, okay. What should we do with those thoughts? We got them out there. Are they useful to people? Are they, are they helpful? What can we do with those? And that’s been a lot of fun—I think maybe a bit more fun than I expected. Just the ability to get on and have a topic and start talking and sharing those thoughts has been a lot of fun.

Well, and for what it’s worth, I always looked forward to those from the time you guys started doing them because since you’re both hosts at the time. And I liked the format you chose, which was let’s talk about what each of our guests has said, and then let’s also put our own spin on it. And it just was a really great idea, speaking of developing the idea behind the podcast—that was a genius decision to have these recap, check-in type episodes.

Yeah, those were a lot of fun. Who knows what we’ll see in the next hundred. I’ve got some ideas. Like I said, I’ve got a couple more questions that I’m looking forward to putting out there for people. And may even test it out on you here in just a minute, as we look to wrap up the show. That’s my favorite way to ask a question, is to not give anybody a heads up that it’s coming, because you don’t know what’s coming.

No, I don’t. Before you go there though, I did want to mention, with the next 100 episodes ahead of us, and you just mentioned the community you see out there in the comments and in hearing from people directly, I’d love for the listeners to share their thoughts and what they’d like to see, so yeah, get out there on your keyboards and your phones, and next time you talk to Jeremy and anything else and let us know.

That’s right. Connect with me on LinkedIn. My email, I’ll put it in the show notes. I think it’s out there anyway. It’s pretty easy: jeremyc@upstreamacademy.com. But who do you want to hear? Do you have people that you think I should be talking with and we should be interviewing on the podcast, getting their story that they’ve got something meaningful to share? I know we’ve already got three or four guests lined up to kick off the next hundred episodes. We’ve got some exciting, a couple of them in there that are very personal, exciting stories. One that’s a bit more on the educational side, keep exploring some of the changes in the profession, because I do know as a leader, it’s good to get a perspective on some of these things. We’ve explored private equity, we’ve explored M&A, we’ve explored a variety of things. We’re going to dive into the world of ESOPs just a little bit in one of the upcoming episodes, which I think will be neat. Learning what that could look like for accounting firms. I know there’s a few clients and listeners that are in a firm that has an ESOP, but exploring what that could look like. So always looking for new ideas. Always trying to find new guests and topics that you’d like us to explore.

This is, like I said earlier on, it’s an absolute privilege to be able to interview all of these amazing people and share thoughts with the community. Love to hear who else you’d like us to be chatting with and the topics that you’d like us to address. So connect on LinkedIn, shoot me a message, shoot me an email, and we’ll definitely make that happen. Justin, as you think about the next 100 episodes, before I get to that question, what are you excited about? What do you think will be fun about the next 100 that will maybe differentiate from the first 100?

Yeah, where do I begin, to be honest? I mean, as you’ve really nicely covered, the show has evolved, and it’s definitely not stopped evolving. You’re thinking about it, I’m thinking about it, we have our meetings occasionally talking about what do we want to do, where do we want to go. So, without giving too much away, I’m just excited that we’re going to keep refining these ideas and continue to look for the right balance. Because while it’s been a really good balance up to now, it’s always, I guess from my producer perspective, I’m always looking for the way to make the content as compelling as possible. So that will be the philosophical approach to the next hundred is, we want the listeners to really feel energized. And I know it’s an accounting podcast and an education podcast, but enthralled by what we have to say and share.

Hey, accountants still get enthralled. They’re just as excitable as everybody else. We may have our quirks, but we’re still just as excitable as everybody else. We can still get excited about things. I’m going to do this as a side note real quick. I get really excited about books. As many of you know, I almost always have book recommendations.

Any listener will know that!

Yeah. I’m always asking for book recommendations. So what I’m going to do is, the first five people that actually email me or send me a message on LinkedIn, if you’re in the U.S. or Canada, I will restrict it, I guess in that way. First five people, U.S. or Canada, that email me ideas, topics, or a potential guest that you’d like to see, or even just say, “Hey, listened to the episode, appreciate it, been listening,” I will shoot you, I will mail you, not just shoot you over a copy, I will mail you a copy of one of my favorite books. I’ve got several of them here that I’m a huge fan of, so, the first five folks that shoot me an email or an instant message on LinkedIn, what you’re liking about the show, what you’d like to see, I will, in return, send you one of my books that I—not my books, maybe one day—but one of my favorite books, I should say.

Yeah, maybe someday!

Maybe that’s where it goes, but right now they’re going to be by other people, they’re not books that I wrote, but books that I enjoy and find incredibly meaningful for leaders today. I’ll send you one of my favorites for the first five U.S. or Canada listeners that, we’ll send that out.

Well, how about that? Good deal.

Yeah. Alright, so Justin, I’m going to ask you the question that’s going to become the norm over the next hundred. I’m always still going to start the conversation the same way. It’s always still going to be, “How did you become the leader that you are today?” Perfect. But I want to send you forward thinking just a little bit. Who’s the person that you want to become? Who are you working to become in life?

Hmm. I am working to become a better parent because I didn’t get started at it until 42 years into my life. And I mean, I didn’t have to go through any of the diaper changing and terrible twos and any of that. I got married, so I inherited children, so to speak.

You jumped into the teenage years, didn’t you?

Yeah, I did, for two out of three of them. So trying to find—like, it’s a constant struggle when you already didn’t have all the rest of the experience that you’re supposed to have by them reaching that age. So yeah, I’m definitely trying to continue to improve and be as good of a dad to them as I can.

I’m also—I’m trying to be a person that can see just a little bit out toward the horizon when it comes to these endless sea of changes that we’ve alluded to, and it’s hard. It’s really hard to gaze through the noise and really focus on the important things. You have to be very deliberate and very sure about the kind of information you’re taking as kind of the base on which you’re going to build your idea of what’s coming. It’s something that’s really important, given what I do, that I understand, you know, what are the trends? What are people going to be looking for? What can we do to cater to that while not losing our own identity and the ethos of the show? And so, yeah, it’s something that I’ve told myself I need to be sure that I’m putting enough energy into as well.

It’s always a tough one. It’s easy to get caught up doing the work. It’s exactly step back and look ahead as to where the work may be headed and what’s on the horizon. Nobody’s crystal ball is very clear these days.

No, it’s a true challenge. That’s for sure.

Very much so. Well, Justin, I appreciate you joining me on episode 100. I feel like I should have had confetti or champagne or something for us, but it’d be hard to do because we’re quite a ways away from one another…

Yeah, several thousand miles does cause those issues.

Yeah. It would make a toast challenging. But to you, to Heath Alloway, who was a co-host for a long time and he’s subsequently moved on and doing great things at his, the firm that he is now with and to all the previous guests and to all the listeners, thank you, from me. This has been an absolute blast. The first hundred episodes I have had so much fun. I’ve learned amazing things about other people—as a result, I’ve learned a lot about myself. And I cannot wait for the next hundred episodes and to see what we learn there. So with that, Justin, thank you so much.

To you as well, Jeremy, and thank you for both putting your trust in me to participate in creating this project that is The Upstream Leader, as well as having me on to celebrate with you. This was a cool thing to experience.

Absolutely. Well, everyone have a great day again—thanks for the first hundred and here’s to the next hundred. We’ll talk to you again soon.